38 Year Old Has Five Failed Fresh IVF Cycles But Has Frozen Embies: Should She Try FET?

Question:

Hello - I have been reading you blogs for some time now and am so thankful that you take the time you do with such thoughtful answers.

I am 38 and husband is 41. My history is as follows: 2009 wasted time on clomid prescribed by my obstetrician, 2010 saw RE (reproductive endocrinologist) and began the real journey. Major issue is male factor morphology but I suspect with my age quality may be issue too.

In 2010 we had 2 Fresh IVF (in vitro fertilization) cycles, first was a failure 3 eggs collected, thankfully 3 fertilized and implanted 2 (1 frozen) but no pregnancy, cycle 2 doubled my stim meds to 300 gonal f and 150 repronex, collected 13 eggs but transferred 2 "decent" but beta was very low around 70 the pregnancy continued to around 11 weeks saw heartbeat but clearly there was issues as the size kept loosing ground until miscarriage and D&E. Cycle 3 same meds, 13 eggs, transferred 2 on day 5 and then arrived my beautiful baby girl delivered 12/29/2011.  Fast forward to 2013 where I have done two more fresh cycles same protocol, birth control, 10 lupron, to 5 lupron when stimming, retrievals after 9-10 days of stims. Cycle 4 resulted in collecting 20 eggs, 2 "decent" transferred on day 5 (blastocyst and morula) very low beta resulted in loss about a week later.  Cycle 5 same protocol except menopur instead of repronex, collected 18 eggs, 14 fertilized and transferred 2 blastocysts on day 5. This was a negative. BTW all cycles are ICSI and included medrol, baby aspirin, antibiotics, vivelle patches and  progesterone in oil injections. 

My question is what are your thoughts on FET (frozen embryo transfer).  I have 4 frozen embryos 1 from cycle 1, 1 from cycle 4 and 2 from cycle 5. RE and hubby think I should take a break and try for FET. I and concerned as I don't want to "waste" a cycle insurance will cover on the lower cost option but the meds did really affect me this time and see their point about giving my body a rest. I am at a very reputable clinic in Boston and doc said 4 frozen is a lot due to their strict freezing criteria so am optimistic although obviously embyro age has no advantage. Would FET also be something you would recommend at this point? Fresh cycles are a big logistical challenge as my husband travels 70% of the time.

Also if I go back to fresh cycle is there anything significantly different you would do (btw I am also doing acupuncture). Thank -you in advance for your time. I also want to say I am very grateful for my daughter and don't want to seem selfish but I would really like her to grow up with a sibling. 

J. from Boston

Answer:

Hello J. from the U.S. (Boston),

It sounds like you are in good hands.  Your clinic has accomplished several pregnancies, which is an IVF success.  Keep in mind that IVF can only give you the "opportunity" to become pregnant.  It can't make you pregnant because the last three steps (embryo hatching from its shell, attachment to the endometrial lining, and lining growing around the embryo are natural processes that are in God's hands.  That fact that you got a pregnancy (positive bHCG) shows that those steps occurred.  Continuation of the pregnancy is then based on pregnancy factors and not IVF factors.  Because of your age, your chances of a miscarriage are high due to abnormal embryos.  You've shown that you can get pregnant, and your ovaries stimulate very well.  Now it is just a matter of finding the perfect egg/embryo which will then lead to a successful pregnancy.  I wish all my 38 year olds responded as you do.  So hang in there!

I think I would advise proceeding with the FET cycle before another fresh cycle.  It is a much easier cycle on your body, and some newer studies are showing better pregnancy rates than fresh, probably because of the lack of overstimulation of the endometrial lining.  I don't completely agree that FET is "better" but it certainly gives a good chance.  If they fail, you can certainly try fresh cycles again.  I would advise two FET cycles consecutively.  In fact, I always advise my patients to do an FET cycle, if they have frozens, before trying a fresh cycle again.  You never know. . . the frozen might work.
In terms of additional protocol changes, you are doing everything that I have my patients do in terms of supplemental medications, but I also add low dose heparin (2000 U per day).  Not all RE's agree with this protocol, but it is an accepted protocol for recurrent pregnancy loss so you might want to ask your RE.

Thanks for following my Blog.

Good Luck,

Edward J. Ramirez, M.D.
Executive Medical Director
The Fertility And Gynecology Center
Monterey Bay IVF

www.montereybayivf.com

Monterey, California, U.S.A.

Comment: Thank you much for the quick and thoughtful answer. I have several time contemplated seeking a more aggressive clinic despite my comfort level. Your response puts many of my worries at ease. You are truly a huge help to those of us in a constant state of limbo. Thanks again.

 

39 Year Old With Recurrent Chemical Pregnancies

Question:

Hello there! I’m writing to you from Florida. I have recently suffered two miscarriages. One in Oct of 2012 and one in March of this year. Both occurred at about two weeks so very early. I guess the term is chemical pregnancy when it is that early. I don't know how I know I am pregnant so early but I just know. My body is sensitive! I am 39 years old so my Dr. watches me closely and had me do the clomid challenge test to check the fsh which I think tests egg quality. Mine was 7.6. I also had a vaginal ultrasound and everything looks perfect. No fibroids or cysts. Then in March 2013 I got pregnant again and I was immediately sent for an hcg blood test. My hcg levels kept going up and down 241 to 119 over the course of three weeks and it would not leave my system completely so I ended up having to have another ultrasound that found nothing as they were worried about an ectopic pregnancy but did not find a sac or anything. I ended up taking a methotrexate shot.

Finally my levels went back to zero and 6 weeks later I did a complete recurrent miscarriage blood panel test and they found that I tested positive for two copies of the mthfr CT677 gene. I also was out of range for the PAI-1 test which was 51. Everything else was normal. My Dr. put me on foltx and a daily aspirin plus I take my prenatal vitamins and she told me that as soon as I find out I am pregnant again I need to start administering lovenox injections and progesterone suppositories. Right before delivery it would change to heparin. I enjoy reading your blog and appreciate all of your knowledgable answers. I would like to know what your thoughts are about the regimen she has planned for me and if there is anything else I should be doing. I am a bit nervous to try again. We really want to have a baby!  

Thank you, M. from Florida

Answer:

Hello M. from the U.S. (Florida),

The CCCT is to check for ovarian reserve (ability of the ovary to respond to stimulation) and not egg quality.  Thought you should know that.

It sounds like your Ob/Gyn doctor is well versed in the evaluation and treatment of recurrent pregnancy loss, which makes her a little better than the average Ob/Gyn doc.  One thing to keep in mind, however, is that you have the "age factor" which means that your eggs are old and debilitated and therefore have a propensity to forming abnormal embryos.  In most cases these embryos will not continue and lead to a miscarriage (especially before 8 weeks gestational age).  The age factor is the main factor that you are trying to overcome.  There is no treatment that can make eggs better.  The good news is that your ovaries are still functioning well, and you know that you can get pregnant.  Now it is just a matter of getting a perfect egg.

The increased folic acid, low dose aspirin, low dose heparin or lovenox and progesterone supplementation are all reasonable and acceptable treatments for recurrent pregnancy loss. What I would recommend is that the heparin/lovenox start immediately with the start of your period, NOT once you become pregnant.  It should already be in your system when implantation occurs to help with increased blood flow at the implantation site, and decrease the immune response to the embryo.  Starting after pregnancy would defeat the purpose.

Based on your age, I would agree with the above regimen, add CoQ10 600 mg per day (found to help with egg quality in mice.  No human studies yet but it can't hurt) and strongly recommend that you consider IVF rather than continuing to try naturally.  I know that you are able to get pregnant naturally, and it may eventually happen, but the only way to increase your chances of success (overcome the age factor) is to increase the number of eggs and embryos you have to choose from.  With IVF, you have a better chance of finding the perfect egg.  I explain it to my patients with the following analogy: imagine that you have a bucket of blue balls and a few red balls. There are mostly blue balls and only 4-5 red balls.  The red balls represent your good quality eggs and the blue balls the poor quality eggs.  These balls are all mixed up together and you lift the bucket above your head so that you can't see inside.  Now you have several options.  You can take one ball out at a time (like you would in a naturally ovulatory cycle) whereby you will eventually get a red ball, but you can see that it will take a long while; or you can take out a handful of balls out at a time (like using superovulation with fertility drugs); or you can dump out a bunch of balls at a time (like doing IVF).  You can see that the latter method is the fastest for getting to a red ball.  That is why IVF (in vitro fertilization) is the recommended treatment.  With a red ball (good quality egg) not only will you get pregnant, but you will have a successful pregnancy because a normal embryo will develop.

Sorry for the extremely long explanation, but I hope my answer has been clear.

Good Luck,

Edward J. Ramirez, M.D.
Executive Medical Director
The Fertility And Gynecology Center
Monterey Bay IVFwww.montereybayivf.com

Monterey, California, U.S.A.

36 Yr. Old Has Repeated Implantation Failure With Great Embryos...What's Wrong?

Question:

Dear Dr,

We have just had our 4th failed IVF (in vitro fertilization).

Our history.  I am 36, my husband is 39. 1st pregnancy was in 2009 after 3 IuI's (intra uterine insemination) and clomid, but had to terminate at 15 weeks due to large enphaloceale (was a random genetic mutation)and my 2nd pregnancy with IUI was a success with a full term healthy baby boy.

Started with IuI's for 2nd child in 2011! We had 10 IuI's and now 4 IVF's.  Each IVF has been with icsi (intracytoplasmic sperm injection) and this time we had Embryo hatching. Last 3 transfers were 3 top grade 8 cell embryos each time on day 3.  I am not a great responder and only ever have 5-7 eggs, of which usually 4 fertilise.

I have had all the immunity checks done, my husbands sperm dna damage is within normal, fertilisation rate is good.  My ovarian reserve was also checked and the level was 1.0- My specialist said that he wasn't overly worried about the reserve for my age.  I have had a hysteroscopy and all normal.  I have been on various drug protocols and this last one was the long Lupron cycle with menapur.

We are just not sure what to do next?  Do we keep going, as my doctors are very positive and we have the finances. Are my doctors missing something?  Is there anything else we can do to improve our chances.  I am on DHEA and Royal Jelly, and my hubby is also on supplements.

I am writing from CapeTown, South Africa.

Thank you for your consideration, R.

Answer:

Hello R. from South Africa,

The exact cause of your failure cannot be known as there are still four steps your embryo has to go through in order to produce a pregnancy: embryo has to develop to blastocyst, the blastocyst has to hatch our of its shell, it then has to attach to the uterine lining and the lining has to grow around it.  As of now, there is no technology that can make this happen.  "Assisted hatching" is just making a defect in the shell so that the embryo can exit (hatch) more easily.

Something I always worry about when I have patients tell me they have failed multiple cycles despite good embryos, is the quality of the final step of the IVF process, which is the transfer.  You can have the absolute best and perfect embryos but if the transfer technique is not done well, then it will fail.  This has been shown by numerous studies.  Since you have been going to the same clinic, I wonder if that is not the problem, in which case, I would recommend that you seek out a different clinic.

One thing that I do with my patients that is not universally accepted but done by many of us, is to use a recurrent miscarriage protocol to reduce the immune system, thinking that a heightened immune system might be at fault.  For this regimen I add low dose heparin or lovenox, medrol, low dose aspirin, extra estrogen and extra progesterone (both injectable and vaginal).  I don't think that DHEA does anything so I don't use it.

At 36 years old, I have a 66% pregnancy rate in my clinic.  By two to three attempts with good 8 cell embryos, you should already be pregnant.  Your rate should especially be increased over other 36 year olds since you have been pregnant before.  For these reasons, I think the fault may lie in your clinic and not in you or your husband. 

Good luck in your journey to have a second child,

Edward J. Ramirez, M.D.
Executive Medical Director
The Fertility And Gynecology Center
Monterey Bay IVF
www.montereybayivf.com

 

Monterey, California, U.S.A.

Is A Big IVF Clinic Better Than A Small One?

Question:

Hello,

I am writing from Japan and want to ask that can big, crowded clinics be good or are small ones always good? Which is a worst choice...I'm very confused actually....like the crowded one has all the plus points, it is experienced, and cost is little bit lower than other. The big one has the pioneer in begining the IVF (in vitro fertilization) in Japan, the other has good success rates but only opened 6 yrs back...I'm totally confused!

How many cycles should a clinic do per year and what can I use to make my decision?

Please help ! H. from Tokyo

Answer:

Hello H. from Tokyo,

I run a smaller, low volume clinic and have better pregnancy rates that they large ones in my area, including the ones at Stanford University and the University of California, San Francisco.  I feel that I give better more personalized care because I am caring for them personally and completely.  I don't have other people doing what I should be doing.  The biggest disadvantage of a very large clinic is that it is a factory and depersonalized.  IVF should be a personal and intimate procedure, NOT a mechanical one.  So, of course I have a bias.  I would not recommend a small clinic that has a poor pregnancy rate, but if it has a good pregnancy rate, I think that is the better place to go.  I don't care how big and famous the larger clinic is or how many cycles they do, if it were me and my wife doing this I would want a clinic where the doctor is going to give us personalized attention the entire way, including personally do the retrieval and transfer procedures. I know that at the larger clinic in Japan you will rarely if EVER get to see the "famous" doctor,  so what good is it to go there? The smaller clinic will probably give you a better experience even though it is at a slightly higher cost.

In the U.S., people prefer to go to clinics where they get one on one personalized care, not where they are treated as another number.

幸運 ... Good Luck!

Edward J. Ramirez, M.D.
Executive Medical Director
The Fertility And Gynecology Center
Monterey Bay IVF
www.montereybayivf.com

Monterey, California, U.S.A.

 

How To Reduce The Risk Of OHSS

Question:

Hello,

I have been able to get pregnant naturally, but due to my kidney disease was not able to carry to term.  I have about 50 percent kidney function due to mild segmental mesangial sclerorsis.  I'm planning on pursuing surrogacy and would like to know what you would recommend for cycling treatment to reduce to the risk of OHSS (ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome) during the stimulation process?

Thank you, R. from California

Answer:

Hello R. from the U.S. (California),

First, I would choose a good IVF clinic.  OHSS is mostly due to overstimulation.  You'll want a doctor that is cautious, has a protocol to reduce the chances of developing OHSS and watches his patients carefully.

Second, OHSS tends to be most common in patients with PCOS where the ovaries are very sensitive to the stimulation.  If you don't have PCOS, then the chances of developing this problem are lower.

Third, patients at risk for OHSS get less medication than patients not at risk.  That is because their ovaries are so sensitive that they don't need much stimulation, and in fact, you don't want to stimulate them too strongly.  So a low dose FSH only or FSH/LH protocol is used.  I also don't use the "long protocol" in patients at risk for OHSS.  The long protocol is using Lupron injections starting from the luteal phase of the preceding cycle.  I use the antagonist protocol (the antagonist is to prevent spontaneous ovulation by suppressing the ovaries) which then allows me to trigger with Lupron instead of HCG (such as Ovidrel).

Finally, the estradiol levels and close monitoring of follicular growth are required so find a physician/clinic that works closely with their patients.  A large "factory" type of clinic is probably not a good choice. See this article regarding an American egg donor who underwent an IVF cycle through a Canadian clinic in 2011 to get an idea of the worst case scenario:  http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03/28/kylee-gilman-sues-toronto-fertility-doctor/

Good Luck!

Edward J. Ramirez, M.D.
Executive Medical Director
The Fertility And Gynecology Center
Monterey Bay IVF
www.montereybayivf.com

Monterey, California, U.S.A.

National Infertility Awareness Week 2013....Join The Movement!

Dear Readers,
    This week, in the United States, through the great organization Resolve, we are promoting infertility awareness on many different venues...support groups, chats on Twitter and Facebook and over the blogosphere. April 21st - 27th, 2013 is National Infertility Awareness Week (NIAW).  NIAW is a week dedicated to bringing information about infertility to the public created by Resolve. Every year they have a theme. This year the theme is 'Join The Movement'. Although as an infertility physician blogger and a former infertility patient myself I joined the movement long ago, back in the mid-90's when my wife and I were going through IVF not many were aware or supportive of our journey. Fast forward to 2013 and it is amazing to see how much more aware the general public and the media are of the issues my patients face on a daily basis. It is due in large part to organizations like Resolve and the American Fertility Association and the many, many women bloggers and community forums that have joined ranks in spreading awareness. 

     There are many ways you can continue to spread awareness and inform yourself along the way. For starters there is the Resolve NIAW page where you can connect with some of the activities and teleconferences that will be going on this week. You can go online and keep apprized of the issues through spokeswoman Keiko Zoll's "The Infertility Voice" , where you can also get banners for your FB or Twitter pages. Resolve of New England is another excellent resource for information. This week they are featuring posts centered around IF such as, "From The First IVF Baby To Modern A.R.T." and "When To See A Fertility Specialist" all done by leading scientists and doctors in the field.

     Simple gestures such as following and posting #NIAW on Twitter and including your thoughts on infertility can spread the word as well. Another option is to follow infertility blogs like this one, "Where The *Bleep Is Our Stork", another simple way of showing your support for women like yourself who are going through IF.

     I close with the words of the above blogger regarding her feelings for this year's NIAW: "I don't want to be defined as "infertile", even if that is what I am. I want to be defined as inspirational and motivating and strong."  Kudos to her and to all of you for persevering and joining the movement!

32 Yr. Old Losing Hope After One IUI Miscarriage and One IVF Chemical Pregnancy: I Say Don't Give Up!!!

Hello, I don't even know how to begin because my infertility process has been so exhausting. I suppose I have diminished ovarian reserve. My last FSH check was 8.5. My AMH is 1. My stimulation cycles response seem to change--one time will be a nice response and the subsequent ones won't be. I started my first IVF this year and I fear repeating the same pattern as last year. Last year, my first IUI on 75 follistim/femara produced 4 mature eggs. I conceived, hcg was high, but ultimately a miscarriage due to trisomy 3. Did a complete RPL work up (I had a chemical pregnancy unmedicated 6 mos earlier). Nothing was abnormal, even karotyping. I had two more IUIs after that, producing 2 eggs, then only 1 egg. No success. I battled recurrent simple follicular cysts for about six months (would bounce from one ovary to next, two cyst aspirations and they would still come back) and finally had a cystectomy and laparoscopy in early February 2013. He found very mild endometriosis and treated it. I had started birth control pills in early January, on for 5 weeks, and then carried on with an antagonist protocol later in February with 150 follistim/75menopur. My day 4 E2 was over 700, thought I had another cyst, but instead had several follicles, dropped follistim to 75, then E2 dropped to 500, then up to 100 follistim and eventually my growth balanced out. Ultimately, I had 14 follices, 12 mature, 9 eggs retrieved, 6 fertilized, 4 day 3 embryos, then 2 highest grade blastocysts, 1 morula. Transferred the two blasts. Positive beta, 175 14 days after transfer. But my 48 hour beta dropped to 77. So I'm having another chemical pregnancy/miscarriage. This is exactly a year from my last miscarriage. I am terrified that in continuing IVF I will repeat this same pattern--that the next IVFs will not work. I just don't know what to do. I don't want to be 32 and have bad eggs when I know I don't have a translocation. I feel like I do respond to lower doses of medications, which should be indicative of decent reserve, but I don't know why I would keep having such problems likely due to embryo abnormalities. I suppose my uterus may have not been ready after the surgery and it wasn't the embryo but I took the good stuff-PIO, vivelle, dexamethasone, prednisone. Anyway, can these protocols be causing me an increased risk for aneuploid embryos? What could be changed? Any comforting words that I won't face the same fate with more IVFs that I did with the repeat IUIs? With it happening the same way all over again, I am believing I'll never have a baby. Last year was so hard, this IVF was hard. I’ve had to miss so much work, surgeries, U/S, procedures, etc. And I love my husband so much. I hate that I put him through this. Thank you, L. from Oklahoma Answer: Hello L. from the U.S. (Oklahoma), First let me clarify and emphasize to you that the IVF cycle worked, and you certainly have a good chance that it will continue to work in the future.  Your doctor probably did not explain that IVF only gives you the "chance" to get pregnant.  It, in fact, cannot MAKE you pregnant because the last three steps of the reproductive process are still beyond our technology to make happen.  These steps have to happen naturally (that part is still in God's hands).  So the fact that you got pregnant on your first IVF cycle is significant because it shows that you can get pregnant!  It is unfortunate, however, that it ended as a miscarriage. In terms of going through all of your previous pregnancies and this one, that would involve a more comprehensive analysis and explanation, that is beyond this venue.  I can do that by private consultation only. Second, I think you need to get the terms "decreased ovarian reserve" and "never" out of your vocabulary.  You DON'T have decreased ovarian reserve.  Keep in mind that in IUI cycles, we only want up to three mature sized follicles so that you don't get triplets, quadruplets, etc.  So, your responses were appropriate.  With your IVF cycle you were on a very low dose protocol and the yield was appropriate. . . not too strong and not too light.  You certainly could have been stimulated a little stronger, but it looks like your ovaries are very sensitive to the fertility medications so some care needs to be taken, as your doctor did. Finally, there is no technology that can predict or evaluate for internal embryo quality.  We can evaluate chromosomes so one option you certainly could consider with IVF is to have preimplantation genetic screening (PGS).  If you decide to do PGS, I would recommend a D#5 biopsy to reduce harm to the embryo, but your embryos would need to be frozen and transferred at a different cycle.  But that would allow you to evaluate the genetics of the embryo prior to transfer.  Your doctor would also need to stimulate a little stronger to have more embryos to work with and test since surely some will return abnormal.  This will then allow you to transfer normal embryos. All clinics, doctors and the protocols they use differ and that is what influences the pregnancy rates which vary from clinic to clinic.  There are other treatment protocol options; for example, I use low dose aspirin and low dose heparin in my recurrent pregnancy loss patients.  It has been well documented to help.  You might want to discuss that with your doctor. I want you to not lose hope.  You are young, your ovaries are still responsive and you've been pregnant, so now the goal is just to get a perfect embryo so that you can have the perfect baby.  Statistically, your chances are very very high, so you will eventually be successful.  You just need to hang in there and get the best treatment that you can.  Then once you have your baby, let me know so that I can celebrate your success as well.  You are on the road to success.  The only way you will surely fail, is if you deviate from than road.  Like Law school, this is a hard road, and it may not be fair, but in the end, it will be the most wonderful experience you've ever had in your life!  Greater than falling in love.  It was for me, and I thank God for his blessing that gave me my beautiful soon to be 16 year old IVF daughter.  Keep the faith in your path and in yourself.  Sorry for the long answer...good luck! Dr. Edward J. Ramirez, M.D., FACOG Executive Medical Director The Fertility and Gynecology Center Monterey Bay IVF Program www.montereybayivf.com