PCOS Patient In India On Clomid: Needs To "Rest" Ovaries & No Ovarian Drilling!

Question:

Hi, I am G. from India. I am 26 yr old and I have PCOS. My LH level (14) is high on day 2. I am trying to conceive now. My gynae suggested me with clomid 100 mg from day 2 to day 7 and hmg 75 on day 2, 3 and 4. After seeing a developing follicle in my right ovary through ultrasound, I was injected with hmg 75 on day 8, 10 and 12. I had 2 eggs with 18 mm measurement on day 14. Then I was administered with hcg 10000 to release those eggs. Me and my husband was asked to have intercourse for 4 days and I was prescribed with progesterone supplement (400 mg) from day 15 for 10 days. In spite of all this, I didn’t get pregnant last month. My husband (age 28) has got healthy sperms. What could be the reason for this failure?

My gynae is suggesting for IUI (intra uterine insemination) this month. How long can I go about with this treatment? Will I succeed in conceiving if I get this kind of eggs in the following month? My gynae also suggests that she has to do a laproscopic drilling if I fail 1 IUI.

Please advice. Thanks in advance.

Answer:

Hello G. from India,

First, you need to understand that fertility treatments are not magic. They don't work 100% of the time. What they do is attempt to restore your reproductive system back to normal, which in your case is to get your ovary to ovulate. For more, in depth information on PCOS please see: Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome.It looks like your doctor did a very good job of treating you in this cycle. She was able to get you to ovulate (probably two eggs) and you had intercourse at the appropriate time. In addition, she supplemented you with progesterone as I would have recommended. Now you need to do that repetitively, just as if you were trying for pregnancy naturally. If you or any woman were trying on their own, they would give up after only one try or wonder why they didn't get pregnant after one try, would they?

The only caveat is that because you stimulated the ovary, you need to skip a cycle in between to give the ovary a rest. You should go on the birth control pill that month to make sure that you have a period in a timely fashion, so you don't have to wait for your natural period to begin. Then you do the same cycle again I would recommend that you continue trying this for 4-6 cycles. Then if it does not work, you can consider other treatments. But, keep in mind that you are assuming that the only problem is PCO. If you have done a complete infertility evaluation, there could be other reasons why the treatment did not work. For that reason, you might want to do an evaluation before moving up to higher levels of treatment. I don't think IUI is an appropriate suggestion at this time. I also DO NOT recommend laparoscopic drilling under any circumstances!

Remember, what you are doing is a "natural" treatment method and your chances of pregnancy, at your age, is 18-20% per month. A normal woman (not using fertility treatments) can take 8-12 months to achieve pregnancy. So, just like someone trying naturally, you have to give yourself time. Don't let your doctor push you into more expensive treatments that you don't yet need.

Good luck,
Dr. Edward J. Ramirez, M.D., FACOG
Executive Medical Director
The Fertility and Gynecology Center
Monterey Bay IVF Program
www.montereybayivf.com
Monterey, California, U.S.A.

Comment: Thank you so much for your advise, doctor. I am confident that I am moving in the right path now. So as u said I shall try this treatment for 4-6 cycles. Thanks for your time.

UK Patient Has PCOS, On Clomid For Ovulation: After First Miscarriage, Should She Continue With Clomid Or Start Injectables?

QUESTION:

I was put on 50mg Clomid due to pcos and long cycles (42-43 days). Right away, my cycles reduced to between 26-32 days. I got pregnant on my 3rd cycle of Clomid, then miscarried.

My RE recommends that I go back on Clomid, and would like me to increase my Clomid dose to 100mg so that we can recruit more than 1 egg (since I was only ovulating one egg on the 50mg dose). I will also be taking progesterone this time.

1) Do you recommend that I increase my dose of Clomid to 100mg to recruit more than one egg (even though I was ovulating normally on the 50mg dose)?

2) If the next 3 months of Clomid are unsuccessful, my doctor recommends that I try FSH injections (since I will have been on clomid for a total of 6 consecutive months, including the 3 months before my miscarriage). Do you recommend moving to FSH injections, or staying on the Clomid since it was successful previously?

3) If I cannot get pregnant again during the next 3 months on Clomid, my doctor recommended getting a laparoscopy. Just wondering if you would recommend I proceed with a laparoscopy if I fail to get pregnant again? I feel like I just got pregnant after 3 months of Clomid, so that the procedure seems unnecessary to me. (I have also had bloodwork, SA, and HSG all come back as normal).

Thank you for your advice. Sincerely,S. from the U.K.

ANSWER:

Hello S. from the U.K.,

I am sorry for your miscarriage. Considering your treatment plan, because you responded to 50mg of Clomid previously, you certainly don't need to increase the amount. However, your doctor's strategy is to get you to ovulate more than one egg at a time to increase your chances of pregnancy with each attempt. We call that super-ovulation. With increasing the number of eggs, you certainly will be increasing the chances of a multiple pregnancy. If that is not acceptable then stay with just 50mg.

I do not recommend moving to FSH injections yet. They certainly have a place but since you have gotten pregnant with Clomid before, I would just increase the Clomid dose. You can go up to 250 mg of Clomid. 3 months also seems like a short time frame for the trial unless you are over 35 years old. Then you might want to proceed more aggressively.

If you move up to the injections then I would also recommend that you add IUI in order to increase your chances even more. I don't recommend a laparoscopy at this time because I don't see a reason for it. I keep in mind that you were successful already with Clomid which shows that everything your body needs to do in order to achieve pregnancy can occur. The pregnancy re-sets the time frame. Now you just need to go back to the same plan and keep trying!

Follow Up Question:

Dr. Ramirez,

Thank you for your prompt reply. It is extremely helpful. I just have a few follow-up questions:

I mentioned previously that I was on Clomid for 3 months and got pregnant on the 3rd month (and miscarried). I have now been on Clomid for another 2 months since the miscarriage and not gotten pregnant yet. So I will be starting my 6th consecutive month of Clomid this month.

You recommended I continue with Clomid at a higher dose (rather than move straight to the FSH injections), since Clomid worked for me before.

1) Could please tell me what is the longest period that I can safely be on Clomid for? [I keep reading that one is only supposed to be on Clomid for a limit of 6 consecutive months. I am going to be starting my 6th consecutive month of Clomid this month]

2) I also keep reading about two negative effects that can occur with continuous use of Clomid. One is thinned lining (my lining has been fine so far). The second effect I have read about is hostile cervical mucus.

My RE said she is willing to do a post-coital test to check on cervical mucus if I want one, but that she does not consider it a reliable test. So my question is - how am I supposed to know if my cervical mucus is being affected by the Clomid? Also, since I am now entering my 6th month of Clomid use, should I consider taking an estrogen supplement which can possibly improve cervical mucus? Thank you very much for your advice. Regards,S.

Follow Up Answer:

Hello Again, When I answered your previous question, I was not implying that I agreed with continuous Clomid cycles. I do not. Because of the "antiestrogenic" effects of Clomid, I do not use Clomid on a continuous monthly basis. I alternate with Femara, but if that is not used, then Clomid should be used on an every-other month basis so as not to block the estrogen receptors, for exactly the reasons you indicated. Yet, as I stated above, your pregnancy reset the time frame.

In terms of the maximum number of months to use Clomid, there is no rule that says that Clomid needs to be stopped after a certain number of months. However, if pregnancy does not occur, then you should move on to the next level of treatment after six months. In your case, since you became pregnant, that reset the count. Because fertility treatments cannot control the pregnancy, and can only give you the opportunity to become pregnant, that is where treatment success ends. So you are now on your second cycle of Clomid, not your 5th.

Certainly if you want to move to the higher level of treatments such as Follistim, there is no reason that you should not. I only suggested the Clomid because it is less expensive, easier to use and worked for you before.

Good Luck,

Edward J. Ramirez, M.D., FACOG

Executive Medical Director

The Fertility and Gynecology Center

Monterey Bay IVF Program

http://www.montereybayivf.com/

Monterey, California, U.S.A.

Canadian Wonders If Progesterone Is Needed for Clomid & IUI Cycles: YES!

QUESTION:

I am trying to conceive and I have had 3 rounds of Clomid (100mg) by itself with no success. I have also now done round 4 with IUI. With the IUI cycle, my doctor told me to take 100mg Progesterone 2xday, intervaginally, and 2mg of estrace 2xday. My question is this...should I have been given Progesterone with the first 3x of Clomid?

I have heard Clomid lowers the progesterone levels and mine was only 7 to start with. I have also had a history of lots of ovarian cysts which has been explained to me as one of the possible reasons I haven't conceived again...because cysts indicate being estrogen dominant.

With this in mind, I have looked up estrace and it is contraindicated in pregnancy...so now I am confused. Why am I being prescribed a med that is contraindicated in pregnancy, when that is what I am trying to achieve, and why if I am already high in estrogen?

I am confused and wonder if I should only be taking the Progesterone....Help! A. from Canada

ANSWER:

Hello A. from Canada,

Practically ALL medications state that they are contraindicated in pregnancy (for legal issues). In actuality, if you read all the fine print, it says to consult your doctor. Both estrogen and progesterone are required for pregnancy to occur. The estrogen is required to prime the endometrium for implantation and the progesterone both converts the endometrium for implantation and supports the pregnancy. They are both used in fertility treatments, and have been for many many years. No problems so far! So, you don't need to worry about using them.

However, I am not sure that you need the estrogen supplementation, especially in the luteal phase (after ovulation). It is usually required in the proliferative (endometrial proliferation in preparation for implantation) phase. The progesterone is required in the luteal phase (after ovulation).

I use progesterone, but not necessarily estrogen, in ALL my Clomid cycles. Clomid is an estrogen receptor blocker and so extra estrogen might be require in the first half of the cycle to make sure that a proper endometrial lining is developed, but that is not always the case. On the other hand, often Clomid with cause a lack of progesterone production, and progesterone is such a benign and easy supplement to use that I don't risk not having enough.

From what you have briefly described, I am not sure that you are in the best hands for this treatment. I know Canada limits the availability of specialists, but you might want to see a fertility specialist. I would recommend that you look up my blog, under "how I do Clomid cycles" and it will describe my recommendations for a proper Clomid induction cycle with or without insemination.

Good Luck and stay informed!

Edward J. Ramirez, M.D., FACOG
Executive Medical Director
The Fertility and Gynecology Center
Monterey Bay IVF Program
www.montereybayivf.com
Monterey, California, U.S.A.

German Woman Suffers Multiple Miscarriages Over Two Year Period - Proceed To Clomid Superovulation?

Question:

I´m 31 years old and writing from Germany. I have no children and have suffered four miscarriages. My husband and I have been TTC for 2.5 years now. After using the implanon hormone implant for birth control, I had it removed in 09/07 to begin TTC. In 11/07 I fell pregnant only to miscarry at about 5w3d. My hormone levels showed an hcg level of less than six. I was told to wait three months and try again, that I would have better luck. In March of 08 I fell pregnant a second time. At my first appt. at 8w5d it was discovered that there was a large sac with no fetal pole. I began to miscarry at 11 weeks and had an emergency D&C because I was losing so much blood. I asked that the tissue be analysed, but was told it was not done for a second loss and that this was in all likelyhood caused by a chromosomal problem. I was told to wait three months before trying to conceive again. Exactly 28 days after the D&C I got my period. I fell pregnant the next cycle, but did not realize it until I started miscarrying. My doctor did not do a blood test, only looked at an ultra sound, shrugged her shoulders and said I wasn't pregnant anymore, if I had ever been. She suggested that I could go for genetic counseling if it would make me feel better.

My husband and I went for genetic counseling, had kareotypes done, both of which came back normal, were tested for various thrombophilic conditions and immune disorders plus thyroid. My results came back as normal for everything but Leiden Factor V. I carry one copy of the gene. I was told by the geneticist that it would be good to start heparin at 8weeks in my next pregnancy and sent on my way.

In December of 08 I fell pregnant a fourth time, was given 100mg of aspirin to take starting at 4w5d. At 5w1d I began to bleed, but the ob/gyn felt that my lining still looked good, gave me progesterone supplements to take and told me to come back in five days for another ultrasound. On my return visit she could not find a sac in the uterus, and was unsure if she wasn´t seeing a sac in müllerin duct. I was told to stop the progesterone immediately and go to the hospital immediately should I have any sharp pains. Otherwise I was to report to the hospital in another five days for a beta draw. After stopping the progesterone I miscarried the next day. Three days later my hcg levels were drawn at the hospital and found to be 144, so I was required to come back every 48 hours for another draw to be sure that they were indeed falling. My levels fell nicely and I was sent home to wait three months before ttc again.We have been trying for a year now, and have not been able to get pregnant.

I have charted, used the clear blue fertility monitor and opk's to no avail. After six months I went to see an RE hoping that he would be able to give me some answers about my miscarriages, but he offered no ideas as to why, only said that my miscarriages were not a result of the Leiden Factor V. He did some bloodwork at CD13 to check my hormone levels, which he said looked very good, did a SA for my husband and a penetration test and said he saw no reason for us not to be pregnant. He suggested a doing a lap but made no further recommendations.

My regular ob/gyn was not in favor of the lap and suggested that I try a bit longer, and that if I wanted to we could try clomid and progesterone to get a stronger ovulation.I am unsure and very confused as what my next course of action should be testing and treatment wise, and if I really have a chance at having a biological child. I would appreciate any thoughts you might have on this subject. Thank you very much for your time.

Answer:

Hello L. from Germany,

Recurrent miscarriages are a difficult problem. The most common reason is because of a spontaneous chromosomal abnormality. That means it occurred when the egg was dividing, and not because you are carrying something. Hematologic disorders, such as Factor V, have been shown to increase the risk of miscarriage. Since you underwent evaluation and that was the only abnormality found, that is good because most patients with recurrent miscarriage due to spontaneous abnormalities will eventually be successful.

You mentioned that you were 31 years old, which is a good thing. Age plays a significant role in the risks of spontaneous anomalies and increases the risk of miscarriage with increasing age, especially after 35 years old. I call this the "Age related egg factor." Most patients that have recurrent miscarriages are because of age related spontaneous genetic defects. In your case, although there may still be "abnormal" or "weakened" eggs within your ovary, your chances of spontaneous defects are low. That means that your chances for success are high.

It sounds like your RE was addressing the issue of your infertility and not the recurrent miscarriage problem. Laparoscopy would be indicated to evaluate for infertility only. I don't think it is indicated at this point as well, but I wonder why you have not gotten pregnant after 1 year of trying. Something has changed and an evaluation is definitely warranted. I would go back to doing a full basic infertility evaluation and not make any assumptions, despite having gotten pregnant in the past. A hysteroscopy would be warranted to evaluate the uterine cavity because of your history of D&C. Therefore, you might also want to consider laparoscopy to complete an infertility evaluation, but not for evaluation of recurrent miscarriages.

If you don't want to do an evaluation but want to proceed with trying for pregnancy, then it is a little shot in the dark. Certainly doing Clomid "superovulation" is an option. This is where the fertility drug Clomid is used to increase the number of eggs that you ovulate per month. This can be paired with either timed intercourse or IUI. I might suggest the latter, IUI (Intra Uterine Insemination) for a higher pregnancy rate between these two. You might want to use low dose aspirin (81mg)per day and heparin (2000 units/twice per day) and medrol 16 mg per day starting from the beginning of the cycle, as well as, supplemental progesterone (vaginal or injectable) and estrogen.

The other option would be to proceed with IVF (in vitro fertilization). In this case, embryonic genetic testing, called PGS (preimplantation genetic screening) can be done to determine which are the normal embryos so that only these would be transferred. If you decided to pursue this option, I would recommend that you choose a clinic that has experience doing this and can do testing at the blastocyst stage (trophectoderm testing), rather than an earlier stage where they take one of the cells, and test with CGH (comparative genomic hybridization) .

I hope this gives you some information to consider.

Edward J. Ramirez, M.D., FACOG

Executive Medical Director

The Fertility and Gynecology Center

Monterey Bay IVF Program

http://www.montereybayivf.com/

Monterey, California, U.S.A.